QOTD #23

[ocelot]

"Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are." - Malcolm S. Forbes (1919-1990)

[shavonfan]

Good thought. Here are a few questions pertaining to it: By what do we and should we measure our value? What is the standard by which we should properly judge ourselves? These are only discussion questions, and I am curious as to what your thoughts are regarding them.

[ocelot]

I think we tend to measure ourselves by looking at other people and thinking of what they are doing and how you may or may not be doing as much. We often measure ourselves according to what is important to other people and what they say instead of looking inside ourselves.

I think the standard by what we measure ourselves should be different for every person. I think you should measure yourself to what you are capable of. For instance, if you are not living up to your capabilities of that moment in time, you should know that you should be doing better. We should measure ourselves according to what to important to ourselves not what is important to other people (except in a job situation we need to measure ourselves according to the job we are supposed to do).

We should judge ourselves by what is in our hearts and souls and if we are living life with the best we have to offer, like getting the most of every situation. If you aren't, you got something to work on.

[shavonfan]

Very interesting, and thank you for your response. Now, just another question or so to try to figure this out. What about men who grow up in a culture that has little to no regard for women or children? What about men who grow up in a culture where they believe that suicide bombing is what makes you a hero, or gives you a greater reward in heaven? What about a woman who was kidnapped at age three and sold into a trade where as she grew up all she learned of being valuable was based on the performance of sexual favors she gave to the men who paid for her services? What about small children who grow up in poverty- stricken neighborhoods and witness nothing but decadence and violence? For all of these people, their hearts are probably at some point in time telling them that something isn't right. But it's all they ever see and know. Now, I'm not looking for an argument here, but a healthy discussion, with the goal of arriving at some concrete answers. I like your answer, and agree with it. But I guess I am just trying to "dig" deeper at this. It's an interesting debate and a thought-provoking discussion!

[ocelot]

I think by what we judge ourselves by needs to be educated. For instance, if someone doesn't have the people around them that really care about them, they need to find out somehow how to respect the world around them and themselves. I think if you don't respect yourself you are in the wrong direction. I think that you have to respect yourself enough to find pride in something about yourself (like for a proverty-stricken child they might find pride in music or some sport). I think you also have to have contentment with yourself. You don't need to be happy but content, satisfied with what you have and the fact that you have done all that you can to be a good human-being and to create a feeling of meaning something good to the world. I think it also has to do with how you feel about yourself. For instance, if you were kidnapped and sold into the sex trade industry, you feel contentment becuase either you got out and there was nothing you could do to escape and that you accept the past for what it was but you also have the knowledge that you are not what you were forced to do but what you are inside and you are what you are in the present moment.

In short you need to measure yourself by how you respect yourself, how you respect the world around you, having something that you find pride in, and how you feel about yourself in the present, not what you did in the past.

[shavonfan]

Okay, that is fair. But tell me this. A culture dominated by the belief that the woman is to blame if a man should be sexually stimulated by her, resulting in laws that prohibit women from revealing any part of their flesh and covering themselves from head to toe. A culture that has such little regard for these women that if she was crossing the street a man would just as soon drive into her than slow down or stop. You seem to be saying that there is a value system out there that is universal in that we should respect ourselves and others. I would agree with you. But what about the man from this culture that I mention, where women are valued with no greater regard than, say, a raccoon? I have my opinion about this, but am very interested in what you think.

[ocelot]

I think you are measured not only by the way you treat yourself but also the way you treat others and if you can't treat a woman the way you want to be treated I think you have something to change. Both men and women are human and I think therefore should be treated equally (the same way between races), not the exact same way in everything but if you treat someone a certain way because they are a man so you should treat a women. Each is very deserving of respect and you should give them that respect unless they as a person have shown they don't deserve that respect. For instance, you aren't going to treat a released rapist the same way you would treat a friend. I think a way to change this is education. I think to truly be measured as a good person you need to respect a woman with the same amount as you would respect a man.

[shavonfan]

I agree with everything you are stating. However, I am still puzzled about the standards you are coming up with. Where are they coming from? Who sets them? Of course this is how you feel, but what about someone who feels completely different? Who's set of values, or lack thereof, are right and who's are wrong? And who determine's what is right and wrong?

[ocelot]

The values, standards, and measures I have been coming up with have been coming from the way that I see the world, through education and the knowledge I have and how I feel about it. I guess we should all be educated about the world and make our decisions based on the knowledge that we have, and then we should measure ourselves on this: We should judge ourselves by what is in our hearts and souls and if we are living life with the best we have to offer, like getting the most of every situation. If you aren't, you got something to work on.

I guess this is how I feel about the measuring myself and for someone else it could be totally different. I really don't think you can have a set standard in which everyone would agree that that is how you are measured. Because everyone's purposes in life is different and there are different religions that say different things, you'll never have an agreement in what is right and what is wrong. So really there are no right and wrong way to measure yourself.

[ocelot]

I think how you measure yourself should come from inside of you, what you feel is important, because it is different for everybody. Some will base it on their religion, some will base it on money and possessions, and others will base it on how they respect the world. There's nothing to stop you from measuring yourself by what you feel is important. I think we can (if we want to) accept people for their differences but it still will be hard to accept people as they are if they harm the things we feel is most important.

[shavonfan]

Thank you very much for putting so much thought into this, Leona, and I really appreciate your answers. It's obvious that you are a good and thoughtful person. I have to look something up in order to respond with my answer, and I will do so shortly. But for now, I would like to recommend three books to you that I found to be very educational. I really think that you would enjoy all three a lot! The first is "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, the second is "Fundamentals Of The Faith" by Peter Kreeft, and the third is "The Book Of Virtues" edited by Bill Bennett. When it comes to books, I would liken these as you have of Cindy Morgan's music. In other words, not your typical Christian "fluff." If interested, and you have a hard time finding these books, let me know. I can send you my copies. They are really fascinating reads, and I think you would completely enjoy them.

[ocelot]

I will definitely look into those books. I know I can get "Mere Christianity" and "The Book of Virtues" through my local library. I will have to see if I can find "Fundamentals of the Faith."

[shavonfan]

Now, please understand that I am not pushing my beliefs off here. As you will see in the books, I am merely explaining (with the recommendation of these books) the reason for my beliefs. Arguments of: Design, First Cause, Conscience, History, and from Pascal's Wager all interestingly proove that it would take a lot more faith NOT to believe in God than it actually does to do so. And I am bringing God into it because if He is the Designer of this whole thing, then He also is the One Who sets all the rules that go with it. Therefore, values are determined by Him, not us. It is because He said so that something is right or wrong, period. It doesn't matter if you choose to believe in Him or not, it still stands....just like gravity. You can say, "I don't believe in such a thing as gravity", but if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute, you are still going to splatter to your death!