Pure Challenge

[lapayin]

Great review Joanna.

I totally agree with what you said about "La Difference." Especially "I don't understand why people don't get it". Mark nice story. Thanks for sharing.

[cppgenius]

I see an opportunity here to discuss a topic that is avoided most of the times, but it is nice to see that this forum is not afraid of discussing it.

I don't understand why people don't get it

Well I'm one of those who doesn't get it and I will tell you why.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

We were created male and female, two males or two females cannot reproduce, so this must already tell us that this cannot work, that this can never be right.

Rom 1:26-29 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over, to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

From this part in the Bible it is clear that homosexuality is God's punishment towards people who went against the nature of human kind, God gave them over to a reprobate mind. I know most people will say "Yes but that is out of the Bible and I do not believe in the Bible". Ok not everyone believe in God, but it is clear, just from nature, that it is not normal being this way. There is nothing more beautiful than a man and a woman in love, the woman is the man's other half, two halves of the same kind won't go together, two polarities of the same kind push each other away.

I'm not trying to force my religion down your throat, nor am I trying to start a debate, I'm merely asking you how do you get past the basic rules of nature created by God, if anyone can explain that, then maybe I will get it.

[lapayin]

Here are my thoughts. I am not a "very religious" person, but I do believe in the traditions of my religion and I do believe in a higher being. I do not take the bible literally.

I agree "There is nothing more beautiful than a man and a woman in love". But to that I would add that there is nothing more beautiful than love. If two people love each other and care for each other and do not hurt anyone else then what's the harm?

What is normal? Who decides that? What is normal for me may not be normal for others. As long as we all live our lives in peace and as good neighbors isn't that what counts?

There are good and bad in all aspects of life. People are different in many ways. There are different cultures, religions, races etc. But when it comes down to the basics we all want to find love, companionship and a have a good life. So we really aren't so different. People just do the same things in different ways.

I believe education is the key. The more we know and understand differences, the more we can embrace differences.

Just my opinion.

[ashja]

Paula I totally agree with you! If you would be here I would hug you for what you wrote. I think exactly the same. I don't see anything wrong in two man or two women in love. If they don't harm anybody then why should we disapprove them? Love is beautiful thing, and people in love are also beautiful. You can't say that they do something wrong casue it's like you would say that love is wrong. Lara really get this and that's why she wrote that song, she wanted to show everyone that it's nothing bad when two people of the same gender are loving eachother. That's my opinion.

If you look closer to the Nature you will see that most of animals are homosexual, like giraffes, monkeys, penguins, whales, beetles and many others. About one and a half thousand animals are homosexual! - I read an article about that couple days ago. Those animals were created by God also - that's how the Bible says.
Are all those animals bad? Is Nature wrong?
Well, I don't think so...

[ocelot]

I'm quite religious, in a way. I believe as Christians we are supposed to love everyone no matter who they are. I believe the homosexuality it not the right way, but it the same way that I don't disciminate between people of other religions, I also don't feel it's my place to discriminate those that are homosexual. I believe love is the most important thing and we should give it to every and any one. Just because they are homosexual doesn't mean they deserve anything less. In the same way Jesus had compassion for the prostitutes and the tax-collectors I feel that it is not my job to judge their life decisions, but to love them unconditionally. There is so much difference in the world that if we change our ways to the people that are not like us, I believe that peace in this world will never stand a chance. Love and grace is the most important, I'll let God judge the rest.

[achebeautiful]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I see that there are differences of opinion to it. Here are my observations:

I begin with Paula's post. I believe the Bible to be true. It is God's Word to us. Then she writes:

I agree "There is nothing more beautiful than a man and a woman in love". But to that I would add that there is nothing more beautiful than love. If two people love each other and care for each other and do not hurt anyone else then what's the harm?

What is normal? Who decides that? What is normal for me may not be normal for others. As long as we all live our lives in peace and as good neighbors isn't that what counts?

God is the One who decides what is right and wrong. We do not get to make up the rules, our job is to follow them. It's not so much a matter of what is or isn't normal, but rather what is or isn't right in God's eyes.

Furthermore, Paula goes on to say that as long as "two people love each other and care for each other and do not hurt anyone else then what's the harm?" Well, here is the harm....disobeying God is called sin, and the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. That means that if God says that homosexuality is wrong in His eyes, and you engage in homosexuality, you are not only bringing sin upon yourself but also the one with whom you are having a relationship. And again, the wages of sin is death, so you are bringing harm to others (and yourself).

We were not put here for ourselves or even each other. We were put here "to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." Yes, we can do for ourselves, and we can do much for others, but the primary purpose for which we are all here is for God and God alone.

That said, I have to completely agree with Leona about this topic. Although the Bible is clear about the subject of homosexuality, it is just as clear about our role with regard to others. "We are to love as Christ loved." Christ loved us so much that He died on our behalf so that we could live.....forever with God!

I believe homosexuality is a sin.

I also have to tell you that I have friends who are in fact homosexuals. Just the other day at work I walked past a woman named Betsy, who is a lesbian. We are close friends, and have seen Bruce Springsteen, U2, and Dave Matthews Band concerts together. We have both been so busy lately that we haven't even talked to each other. As I past her, I stopped and asked her, "Don't you like me anymore? We never talk."

She gave me a big hug and said, "Mark, I love you...I've just been so busy!" I told her the same.

We have a responsibility to "love the sinner, and hate the sin." To not do so is also a direct disobedience to God's Word. Besides, we are ALL sinners.

There are things I will never fully understand about another person's life. I would do well to spend more time considering my own relationship with God, than to scrutinize someone else's.

So, while I agree with Coenraad that homosexuality is a sin, I also agree with Leona that it is God's job to judge those things in another person's life, and for me it is the job to love them as Christ did.

Finally, Joanna wrote:

Paula....If you would be here I would hug you for what you wrote.

Well, Paula, if you would be here I would just hug you....regardless of what you wrote!

[lapayin]

Great comments all.

I just feel there are so many bad things that happen in this world. There is so little tolerance for being different today. In reality we are all different. How boring it would be if we were truly all the same and thought in the same way. I believe it's a waste of my time and energy to worry about how other people live or what they do as long as they do not hurt anyone else (as I said before) and are respectful of others. When you find happiness and love embrace them.

I think the problem comes about when people try to instill their beliefs on others, whether it be religion, fashion, life style or politics. That is why this forum is so great. We can discuss our differences without trying to change each other. We learn from one another.

I beleive because of different religious beliefs we will never agree on whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Mark said - "Well, here is the harm....disobeying God is called sin, and the Bible says that the wages of sin is death."

I admire his strong belief and commitment in his religion and the bible. I, on the other hand, do not have a strong belief in religion or the bible. I do believe in a higher being but not one that sets rules or passes judgement. I do not consider Mark right or wrong nor do I consider myself right of wrong - just different. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

Coenraad asked "I'm merely asking you how do you get past the basic rules of nature created by God, if anyone can explain that, then maybe I will get it." I can't answer that for you, but I hope my explaination helps in some way, for you to understand how I believe.

I wish people, in general, did not see disagreement as being right or wrong, but just as being "different".

[achebeautiful]

I believe that tolerance is absolutely essential with regard to treating each other in spite of differences. I also believe that tolerance is very different from compromise. In this "politically correct" world in which we are now living, it is as if we are supoosed to be absolutely accepting of everything in order to get along with everybody, even at the expense of our true convictions.

I am a Christian, and I believe the Bible to be God's Word and to be taken both literally and in context. I was simply sharing those beliefs in my previous post. I know that Paula is not a Christian, and that her beliefs are different than mine. That is exactly my point. Compromise says that I have to become less of who I am, or sacrifice my beliefs in Christianity in order to fully accept and love Paula, who has different beliefs than I. But tolerance says that I be fully who I am, and follow my strong convictions in my Christian beliefs in order to truly accept and love Paula, with all of her differences. Compromise would ask that Paula be less of who she is so that we could find some middle ground. Tolerance requires that she be all of who she is, and that we could love each other for what we agree upon despite those things that we don't.

I'm not trying to instill my beliefs on anyone simply because I share them. And I agree that this is a great forum in that we can all share what we believe without the threat of meanness or injury to one's person for disagreeing. It will not be aloud here. Everyone brings a lot of thoughtful observations to these discussions, and with it the opportunity for learning and growth.

When I say that I believe homosexuality to be sin, I mean just that. Likewise when I say that I love my homosexual friend, I also mean that. One of my favorite books, "Return Of The Prodigal Son" by Henri Nouwen, was written by a homosexual man.

I just finished watching the film "Under The Tuscan Sun" and was heartbroken when learning that the girlfriend of the pregnant woman decided that she did not want children after all and left her.

Just because I consider homosexuality to be sin does not mean that I do not accept or tolerate homosexuals. I still care about and hurt for them when they suffer, and love them just the same as anyone else. I also do not believe myself to be so virtuous as to not have any vices of my own.

[cppgenius]

Boy I'm busy at the moment, I wanted to make my post a couple of days ago but could not get so far.

Anyway, thank you for all your replies to my question. One thing is clear from all these posts, that we should not judge people, that is not up to us. We are all sinners just like them. Pointing the finger to them have 3 fingers pointing right back at us.

But as a Christian I have to judge their deeds because God has given me the knowledge through the Bible to distinguish right from wrong. I cannot pretend that what they are doing is acceptable, just because I don't want to hurt their feelings. I will betray God if I do something like that. I can never put the feelings of people above the will of God. Does that mean I hate all homosexuals. No, hating them will be sin from my side, but I hate the things they do.

Ashja, i'm not an expert on animals so I'm not going to argue on your comments, but giraffes, monkeys, penguins, whales and beetles can certainly not reproduce without heterosexual relationships. But it would be interesting to see two homo giraffes together. ;D (Sorry Ashja I'm just pulling your leg I could not resist the temptation) Can you send me a link to that article please?

[ashja]

here is that link wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,17711,wid,8688442,wiadomosc.html
I would like to add something to my opinion- God gave us all free will. And Coenraad if you would like to know something more about that girafes just go to nearest zoo I think they know something about that.

[achebeautiful]

Very good point, Joanna, we were in fact all given free will by God....to choose to obey or disobey Him. God wanted us to love Him, not be automatons who only did what we were programmed to do. So He gave us a free will. Because of that, we can choose for ourselves whether to obey or disobey Him, to love Him or not. As much as it must break God's heart, we have the free will to turn away from Him. The story of the Prodigal Son is an example of God as our Father, we of course as the son.

All that said, I still appreciate Lara's song. The heart of the matter is still people, and no matter how different we might be we are all in need, we all have feelings, and we all hurt. So in my opinion Lara did a good thing!

I really am proud to be part of a forum where people can discuss this sort of thing without being mean about it, and free to express differences of opinion. You are all to be commended!

[cppgenius]

I agree Mark, I have a bad record with people taking my remarks as something I'm trying to force down their throats, so I'm glad that no one here saw it like this and if anyone did, it is not my intention, I only saw it as a chance to proclaim God's Word in the first place and secondly initiate a discussion on a very difficult subject.

Johanna will you be so kind and post a translation of the article here (when you find the time) for all of us to read. My Polish is a bit rusty ;D

Our country is a zoo, so I don't even have to go and visit one. LOL!

Sidenote: Johanna I am totally crazy about your Avatar, does anyone know where I can find a large version of that picture (1024x768) that sexy picture will look great on my Desktop. The people here in South Africa does not know Lara at all (like most of you already know) but my friends gasp and stare for hours at the lovely wallpapers of Lara loaded on my Desktop.

The following picture is currently loaded on my Desktop www.freebeeweb.com/lara/lara3wall.jpg

There are many other great wallpapers at the following site:
www.freebeeweb.com/lara/wallpapers.html

Does anyone else know of other great wallpaper sites.

Sorry for changing the topic, but that picture is really beautiful.

[ashja]

Hej! I like my avatar too. The biggest version I found is 400 x 383 and I don't think there is bigger... But you can always look for it