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Post by shavonfan on Nov 4, 2005 22:30:47 GMT -5
What I meant to say is that we could end this war far sooner if we weren't just as concerned about the wellbeing of the innocents as you are speaking of. We are not only fighting terrorism, but also liberating a people. So, no matter how great the cost, monetarily or even with lives, it is a good fight, and one that must be fought.
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Post by ocelot on Nov 4, 2005 22:35:04 GMT -5
Most definitely. I think a lot of people (especially the media) get lost in other issues, when the biggest issue should be respecting humanity.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 6, 2005 9:04:31 GMT -5
"Paris Rioters Set Woman Afire as Violence Spreads"
AUBERVILLIERS, France — Marauding bands of Muslim youth set fire to cars and warehouses and pelted rescuers with rocks early Saturday, as the worst rioting in a decade spread from Paris to other French cities. The United States warned Americans against taking trains to the airport via strife-torn areas.
A savage assault on a bus passenger highlighted the dangers of travel in Paris' Muslim-filled and impoverished outlying neighborhoods, where the violence has entered its second week.
The African immigrant attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.
Justice Minister Pascal Clement deplored the incident, saying it caused him "great emotion."
Rioters burned more than 500 vehicles Friday as the unrest grew beyond the French capital for the first time. Unrest returned to the streets in the evening and early Saturday, the ninth night in a row.
Police said troublemakers fired bullets into a vandalized bus and burned 85 more cars in Paris and Suresnes, just to the west. In Meaux, east of Paris, officials said youths stoned rescuers aiding someone who had fallen ill.
Meanwhile, warehouses in Suresnes and Aubervilliers, on the northern edge of Paris, were set ablaze. Officials said other fires raged outside the capital in Lille, Toulouse, and Rouen, while an incendiary device was tossed at the wall outside a synagogue in Pierrefitte, northwest of Paris.
Some 30 mayors from the Seine-Saint-Denis region where the unrest started Oct. 27 met Friday to make a joint call for calm. Claude Pernes, mayor of Rosny-sous-Bois, denounced a "veritable guerrilla situation, urban insurrection" that has taken hold.
A national police spokesman, Patrick Hamon, said there appeared to be no coordination among gangs in different areas. But he said youths in individual neighborhoods were communicating by cell phone text messages or e-mails — arranging meetings and warning each other about police operations.
The violence started Oct. 27 after the accidental electrocution of two teenagers who believed police were chasing them in the Seine-Saint-Denis region, dominated by low-income housing projects.
Since then riots have swelled into a broader challenge against the French state and its security forces. The violence has exposed deep discontent in neighborhoods where African and Muslim immigrants and their French-born children are trapped by poverty, unemployment, racial discrimination, crime, poor education and housing.
During the day Friday, the burned remains of at least 520 cars littered Parisian streets, an increase from previous nights. Five police officers were lightly injured by youths throwing stones or bottles, the Interior Ministry said.
At a depot in Trappes, to the southwest, 27 buses were incinerated, officials said.
The commuter train line linking Paris to Charles de Gaulle airport ran limited service Friday after two trains were targeted Wednesday night.
The U.S. Embassy called the protests "extremely violent" and warned travelers against taking trains to the airport because they pass through the troubled area. Russia, meanwhile, warned citizens against visiting the suburbs.
The Foreign Ministry said it was concerned that foreign media coverage was exaggerating the situation. "I don't have the feeling that foreign tourists in Paris are in any way placed in danger by these events," ministry spokesman Jean-Baptiste Mattei said, adding that officials were "sometimes a bit surprised" by the foreign coverage.
Still, the violence has alarmed the government of President Jacques Chirac, whose calls for calm have gone unheeded.
"This is the first time (suburban violence) has lasted so long and the government appears taken aback at the magnitude," said Pascal Perrineau, director of the Center for Study of French Political Life.
There were "few direct clashes" with security forces late Thursday and early Friday, however, no bullets fired at police, and far fewer large groups of rioters, said Jean-Francois Cordet, the top government official in Seine-Saint-Denis.
Instead, Cordet said, the unrest in Seine-Saint-Denis was led by "numerous small and highly mobile groups" that burned 187 vehicles and five buildings, including three warehouses.
The unrest erupted with youths angered over the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, who were electrocuted when they hid in a power substation in the suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.
Traore's brother, Siyakah Traore, called for protesters to "calm down and stop ransacking everything."
"This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," he told RTL radio, adding his voice to neighborhood groups working to stop the violence.
Dozens of residents and community leaders were stepping in to defuse tensions, with some walking between rioters and police to urge youths to back down.
Abderrhamane Bouhout, head of the Bilal mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois , said he had enlisted 50 youths to try stop the violence. "We've had positive results," he said.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 6, 2005 9:18:07 GMT -5
"A savage assault on a bus passenger highlighted the dangers of travel in Paris' Muslim-filled and impoverished outlying neighborhoods, where the violence has entered its second week.
The African immigrant attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.
The Foreign Ministry said it was concerned that foreign media coverage was exaggerating the situation. "I don't have the feeling that foreign tourists in Paris are in any way placed in danger by these events," ministry spokesman Jean-Baptiste Mattei said, adding that officials were "sometimes a bit surprised" by the foreign coverage." Yeah, okay, they're burning old ladies in buses and the media is blowing this whole thing Way out of proportion, RIGHT! Hey, France, it is time for a little gravitas.....for the sake of those little old ladies, and everyone else!
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Post by S.C. on Nov 6, 2005 12:06:38 GMT -5
I have been silent on this issue because it hurts me to see France like this. I've been there, and to see Paris under attack like this breaks my heart. The powers that be there should end this violence once and for all. GET TOUGH!!! Evoke martial law if you have to. Start treating this like terrorism. The citizens of France deserve better than this. After years of appeasement, this has become the end result. This is a wake up call to everyone not only in France but in all of Europe. Appeasement has never worked and it never will.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 6, 2005 12:17:31 GMT -5
IT IS TERRORISM, and I couldn't agree more with you.
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Post by ocelot on Nov 6, 2005 12:19:04 GMT -5
It's just horrible and now that they are attacking people the powers at be need to end the violence as soon as possible.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 6, 2005 12:35:04 GMT -5
Umm, they should have ended it BEFORE it came to this. Look, I am not against France in any way. I love them. If I sound harsh it is only because I believe that the powers that be should safeguard the situation from ever happening in the first place in as much as they can. When that isn't possible then you need to do the next best thing...stop it in it's tracks! I want the people of France to not have to live in fear. That's my whole point, and I'm not trying to sound like a bully.
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Post by S.C. on Nov 6, 2005 12:55:12 GMT -5
It should have been stopped sooner. It has spread to other cities of France, cities I have been to like Nice. I am hoping and praying that the violence does not spread to Versailles. My heart could not take all of those beautiful castles that I have been in being vandalized and torched to the ground. The powers that be in France HAS to get a handle on this pronto or this could be the end of France as we know it.
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Post by ocelot on Nov 6, 2005 14:16:14 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with both of you.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 6, 2005 18:47:48 GMT -5
Cool!
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Post by ocelot on Nov 7, 2005 11:55:10 GMT -5
French rioters fire on police, wounding 10 Destruction and rioting reaches Paris New wave of arson attacks hit Paris suburbs First fatality as violence hits peak in France CTV.ca News Staff
Rioters fired at police and torched nearly 1,500 cars in France's worst night of unrest since violence first erupted, in open defiance to a warning from President Jacques Chirac that authorities would clamp down on troublemakers.
Damage from protests across France hit a new peak as rioters in up to 300 towns burned 1,408 vehicles in the 11th straight night of violence, the national police chief said Monday.
More than 4,300 vehicles have been burned since the riots began.
"This spread, with a sort of shock wave spreading across the country, shows up in the number of towns affected," national police chief Michel Gaudin said Monday, noting that the violence appeared to be moving beyond Paris and worsening elsewhere in France.
In the first fatality since urban unrest erupted nearly two weeks ago, a man who was beaten while trying to extinguish a garbage can fire during riots north of Paris has died of his injuries, police said Monday.
The announcement came hours after police were injured in the escalating clashes between rioters and authorities, for the first time since rioting began.
During a late-night clash in the southern Paris suburb of Grigny, ten officers were wounded when youths fired fine-grain birdshot -- a small lead shot for shotgun shells -- and hurled stones.
Two of the riot police were taken to hospital with wounds to the neck and legs. In total, 36 police were injured overnight.
But there are signs that the unrest is transcending French borders.
Police in the Belgian capital of Brussels reported apparent copycat attacks outside the city's main train station, with five cars torched.
There have been reports of isolated violence in Germany as well. Five cars were torched in Berlin on Sunday and six in the western German city of Bremen.
Meanwhile, leaders of other European nations are keeping a close eye on the developments.
"Everybody's concerned at what is happening," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said on Monday.
"I send every support to the French government and to the French people in dealing with the situation. You should never be complacent about these things, although I think our situation is in some ways different."
The French government is facing criticism over its failure to curtail the violence, despite massive police deployment.
On Sunday, Chirac made his first public address since the riots began, saying that restoring order was "an absolute priority."
While the riots began in the suburbs outside Paris, Sunday was the first time the destruction reached into the heart of the city.
"France is determined "to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear, and they will be arrested, judged and punished," Chirac said, after meeting with top ministers.
Chirac is expected to announce special security measures by Monday or Tuesday.
He has come under pressure by opposition politicians who accuse him of failing to intervene publicly.
Though police have already made hundreds of arrests, police union Action Police CFTC is urging the government to impose a curfew on certain areas and to call in the army to control the youths, Reuters reported.
"Nothing seems to be able to stop the civil war that spreads a bit more every day across the whole country," the union said in a statement.
"The events we're living through now are without precedent since the end of the Second World War."
Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious decree, against the riots.
The fatwa by the Union for Islamic Organizations of France forbids all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others."
Rioting first began in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois on Oct. 27, following the accidental deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, in a power substation.
The two youths, of Mauritanian and Tunisian origin, died of electrocution.
Locals have said the boys hid in the substation to escape from pursuing police officers.
A preliminary report has since cleared officers of any wrongdoing in the teen's deaths.
Still, the violence has spread out across the country to include Normandy in the west and southern cities on the Mediterranean such as Nice and Cannes.
The rioting has renewed the debate on how to ease the long-simmering anger in France's suburbs, home to many Africans, Arabs and their French-born children who feel trapped by soaring unemployment, poor housing conditions and discrimination.
Meanwhile, Australia, Austria, Britain, Germany and Hungary have joined the United States and Russia in advising their citizens to exercise care when visiting France.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 7, 2005 12:04:24 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing, Leona. This whole thing is making me sick!
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Post by ocelot on Nov 7, 2005 16:18:34 GMT -5
French PM imposes curfews to stop rioting CTV.ca News Staff
French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has declared that curfews will be imposed wherever they are needed and that 9,500 police officers have been deployed to stop the growing violence spreading across the country.
The announcement came as rioters in the southern city of Toulouse attacked an empty bus and pelted police with firebombs and rocks Monday evening.
"Wherever it is necessary, prefects will be able to put in place a curfew under the authority of the interior minister, if they think it will be useful to permit a return to calm and ensure the protection of residents. That is our number one responsibility," Villepin said on France's TF1 television.
Meanwhile the violence claimed its first fatality with the death of Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec.
The 61-year-old died after being beaten by a hooded man while trying to extinguish a garbage can fire, French police said Monday.
On Sunday, at least 1,400 vehicles were torched and 395 people were arrested during France's worst night of unrest since the rioting erupted 11 days ago.
The rioting, which spread to 300 towns, left 36 policemen injured, including two who were shot in Paris.
More than 4,300 vehicles have been burned since the riots began.
As urban unrest was reported in neighboring Belgium and Germany, the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm.
Police in the Belgian capital of Brussels reported apparent copycat attacks outside the city's main train station, with five cars torched.
Five cars were torched in Berlin on Sunday and six in the western German city of Bremen.
Meanwhile, leaders of other European nations are keeping a close eye on the developments.
"Everybody's concerned at what is happening," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Monday.
"I send every support to the French government and to the French people in dealing with the situation. You should never be complacent about these things, although I think our situation is in some ways different."
On Sunday, Chirac made his first public address since the riots began, saying that restoring order was "an absolute priority."
"France is determined "to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear, and they will be arrested, judged and punished," Chirac said, after meeting with top ministers.
While the riots began in the suburbs outside Paris, Sunday was the first time the destruction reached into the heart of the city.
Chirac is expected to announce special security measures on Monday or Tuesday.
He has come under pressure by opposition politicians who accuse him of failing to intervene publicly.
Though police have already made hundreds of arrests, police union Action Police CFTC is urging the government to impose a curfew on certain areas and to call in the army to control the youths, Reuters reported.
"Nothing seems to be able to stop the civil war that spreads a bit more every day across the whole country," the union said in a statement.
"The events we're living through now are without precedent since the end of the Second World War."
Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious decree, against the riots.
The fatwa by the Union for Islamic Organizations of France forbids all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others."
Rioting first began in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois on October 27, following the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, in a power substation.
The two youths, of Mauritanian and Tunisian origin, died of electrocution.
Locals have said the boys hid in the substation to escape from pursuing police officers.
A preliminary report has since cleared officers of any wrongdoing in the teen's deaths.
The rioting has renewed the debate on how to ease the long-simmering anger in France's suburbs, home to many Africans, Arabs and their French-born children who feel trapped by soaring unemployment, poor housing conditions and discrimination.
Meanwhile, Australia, Austria, Britain, Germany and Hungary have joined the United States and Russia in advising their citizens to exercise care when visiting France.
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Post by shavonfan on Nov 7, 2005 16:32:21 GMT -5
"A War of the Worlds" * This is just an opinion that I found and decided to share....
It's a French cauchemar, a national nightmare with global overtones. For more than a week, gangs of mostly Muslim youngsters have been raging through the poverty-ridden housing projects of the Paris suburbs, battling police with Molotov cocktails and torching cars, shops, warehouses, even schools. Last week, the violence spread to other French cities, and analysts warn it's the kind of fury that could overrun other European countries with disaffected Muslim minorities - and on to American interests as well.
Ostensibly, the riots were triggered by the deaths of two teens, electrocuted when they climbed a power station fence to escape police. Not true, say authorities.
Fact is, this mini-civil war is a long-festering sore that's finally turning gangrenous: the anger of France's increasingly large minority of Muslim immigrants and their children, inflamed and frustrated by what they see as exclusion from the mainstream.
The problem originated in the 1950s and 1960s, when France began importing cheap labor from its former colonies in North Africa. Les Arabes were to do the dirty work and eventually go home. Few did, and today North African immigrants and their families number almost 6 million, more than 10% of the French population.
In a nation that insists immigrants accept the monolithic secular French culture, a great divide has grown. Part of it is the insular nature of Islamic North African culture. But much of it is that "French" France still rejects its North African countrymen.
They don't get good jobs or decent financial opportunities. Their unemployment rate is often as high as 50%. There isn't a single Frenchman or Frenchwoman of North African origin (or black, for that matter) in the cabinet, and only a handful hold any position of rank in the civil and commercial bureaucracy. There are virtually no black or Arab anchors on French TV, or North African cultural presence in the theater or cinema.
This has further angered the Muslim population, driving it deeper into its own ghetto mentality and to communal violence. When I first came to France 50 years ago, North African immigrants spoke Maghreb Arabic, but their French-born children proudly spoke French. Today, the beurs, the young French-born generation of North Africans, talk to each other in Arabic.
The riots aren't helping to reverse the separation. They also, predictably, are frightening and angering large portions of the traditionally xenophobic French mainstream. "I'm no racist," says my neighbor, "but unless we send them back where they came from, we'll have an Arab majority in 30 years."
Needless to say, the venomous corps of Muslim extremists that has infiltrated France's mosques over the years is working the nightmare for all it's worth, egging the young on to jihad - holy war. French security forces are working around the clock to round up potential Islamic terrorist gangs intent on carrying out attacks on French soil. And French and American security services recently traced a network of French-born youths volunteering to join Al Qaeda and battle U.S. troops in Iraq.
There's no rapid solution. But the government must act quickly to improve conditions and attitudes on both sides, to make it clear to the Muslims that violence is no recourse, that France is indeed the land of liberty, equality, fraternity - and opportunity. If it doesn't, France's national nightmare will grow worse, and deadlier.
Originally published on November 7, 2005
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